206.2 – Stacy L. Osten – Video

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Jesse Friedman: Welcome to Impressive Hosting, a podcast about the role hosting plays in shaping the open web. I’m your host, Jesse Friedman. On this show, we go deeper than uptime and dashboards. We talk about hosting as infrastructure, about ownership, independence, and what it takes to build ethical, high-end WordPress hosting that actually serves creators, businesses, and the internet itself. Before we dive in, head to impressive.host. That’s where you can comment on episodes, ask follow-up questions, and help shape future conversations. You’ll also find links to follow, like, and subscribe wherever you listen. We recorded this one at WordCamp Asia in Mumbai. First time in India for me, first time in Asia for my guest. The energy at this event was something else. I got to talk to Stacy L. Osten, Director of Affiliate and Influencer Marketing at Automattic. Her portfolio covers the affiliate programs for WordPress.com, the Woo marketplace, Pressable, and Jetpack, plus the influencer side across all of Automattic from Tumblr to Day One. We got into some great topics every company and agency should care about. What is the risk creators take when they build their entire business on someone else’s platform? Stacy’s been running influencer programs long enough to have watched platform after platform disappear or change, and she’s taken the lesson seriously. We talked about why a WordPress website is the only piece of digital real estate a creator actually owns. We talked about what it means for a host to be so reliable that customers forget who their host even is, and how influencer partnerships can help smaller hosting companies reach audiences they couldn’t touch on their own. This is part two of two. Here we go.

Jesse Friedman: Well, we’re back in India. WordCamp Asia. Part two of our conversation. Stacy and I have been talking about influencer marketing, building a network, and the power it has to protect your own influence. If you haven’t watched the first part of this interview, I’d definitely suggest going back and watching that. So we were talking about the way in which you attract influencers. I’m curious, are you thinking about this from the perspective of people who are already talking about websites as a whole, or are you branching out beyond that and thinking about people who are selling makeup, or whatever their niche is?

Stacy L. Osten: One of our big initiatives for 2026 is going outside of the tech space. It’s about talking to people who have built a business on a website, but who are also florists, tattoo artists, non-technical people who have figured out how important a website is. Having them tell that story is incredibly impactful because it’s like, hey, I’m not a tech person. I’m not using those big words that I don’t even know half the meaning of. A developer understands all of that, but we need people to talk to the mom-and-pops, the self-employed, those types of people. Having them tell the story is incredibly important because we go through life looking for people who look like us. The small business owner wants to know there are other people out there who’ve created a business, who’ve created a website. Like, oh, I totally see myself in that person. They were just like me. And look at where they’re at now. So having them tell the story is almost as important as having a tech person who’s always talking about WordPress talk about it as well.

Jesse Friedman: That’s actually a really interesting point, because you’re looking at it from the lens of the larger WordPress community. At a WordCamp like this, we tend to have this mentality that everyone is super invested in WordPress, that they love WordPress, love the community, want to give back. But the vast majority of WordPress users are actually those mom-and-pops, people who are running a business trying to get things going, and they have a hundred priorities. Being a web designer is not necessarily one of them. So you’re tapping into an audience that can speak their language, that has done it themselves, and proven that it can work. That’s amazing.

Stacy L. Osten: I’ve been using WordPress since 2008, and I can honestly say it was probably 10 or 15 years before I actually understood what open source was. That’s not why I picked WordPress. I picked WordPress because I fell in love with it. I tested out all the options and landed on WordPress because I got in there and understood it. But I didn’t know what open source was. It wasn’t important to me. What was important to me was automating something I was doing manually. It did the job, and it did it really, really well. It wasn’t much later until I actually understood what open source was. So when we’re talking here at WordCamp, everybody understands what open source is. But if I go talk to my friend Jill, she doesn’t know what open source is, nor does she want to. She has more important things to think about. Feeding her family, making money, building her business. Those are the things she’s concerned about.

Jesse Friedman: That’s a really interesting point because we care about open source so much, and part of this podcast is heavily focused on protecting the open web and making sure we all have a voice. But I think it’s okay for folks at home who are just trying to build a website and get moving to not have that front of mind. Our job is to protect the open web and provide a great experience on top of WordPress that everyone can use. In effect, that empowers them, or it drafts them into our open web army in a sense, to continue to protect and strengthen it. And I think the same issue runs deep with closed platforms. You look at Squarespace or Shopify. The fact that Matt is pushing so heavily on data liberation, this idea that you can own your content and take it wherever you want to go, is huge. If your hosting company is not something you agree with, or they’re shutting down, you can be portable with WordPress. You can move. A lot of hosting companies provide migration tools and services and make it seamless. But one of the things that comes up at these WordCamps all the time is companies that build on Shopify. The user experience maybe aligns more with what they’re hoping for initially, and then they grow and start doing better. But the thing about Shopify is that the better you’re doing, the higher the cost.

Stacy L. Osten: Exactly. And what’s funny is I was COO of an e-commerce company on Shopify. Every single month I would sit down and look at the numbers like, oh, we got successful. Oh, now we have to pay more because we have more users. We would actually sit there and try to figure out if we could prune our list for this plugin, because the more people we had, the more they charged us. And what’s even funnier is that we didn’t use Shopify for our blog. We used WordPress, because it was far more superior. We created a sub-domain specifically for our blog, and that’s where we put all of our articles. We had already outgrown Shopify just in terms of needing the SEO capability. But yeah, the more successful you get, the more expensive it becomes.

Jesse Friedman: One of the things we talk about around the core tenets of great managed WordPress hosting is this idea of aligning your host’s business with the success of your customers. Some people might argue that’s what Shopify’s doing, because they’re not charging you very much early on. But in fact, what they’re actually doing is taxing your success. Whereas what we hope for from good hosting companies is that they’re promoting the growth of their customers. I don’t know a hosting company that charges more as you do better. There may be bandwidth costs and other things associated, but they’re usually grounded in something real. They’re not just taxing you. So, to circle back to the influencer network, I’m curious. You’re curating content in a sense for these influencers, helping them understand the products being released by Automattic. But what happens if someone tests a product and it’s not perfect? We’re a very open company. We’re open source based, very transparent about the way we develop and launch. But we’re also pretty honest that sometimes things don’t work or we didn’t nail it. What does that mean when you’re working with an influencer network? Are you influencing them to promote something even if it’s not a great experience?

Stacy L. Osten: Nope. A perfect example of this is that right around the time of WordCamp US last year, we were working with an influencer who was doing a blind review. He was going around to each hosting company to evaluate the customer experience. He was doing it incognito, so we didn’t know he was coming through the pipeline, because he wanted an honest take. He happened to stumble into a rare AI issue with our chatbot and got zero response from us. What should have happened is that once he had a specific problem, it should have escalated him to the next tier of support, and it didn’t do that. He reached out afterwards, after doing this with multiple companies, not just us, and said, here’s what I found. He wanted to see what the response would be. We took accountability. The head of customer support came in, talked to him, figured out what the problem was, and plugged the issue. Then he did a follow-up post covering all the hosting companies he had reached out to and what they did. And that’s the biggest aspect of it. Every company has shortcomings. Nobody’s perfect. It’s the accountability that matters. When somebody comes to me and says, Stacy, I don’t like it when this happens, I’m going to say, how can we make sure that never happens again? And I’m so sorry it did happen. But some of the companies he reached out to who gave him a bad experience didn’t reply back to him at all. That speaks volumes. As a customer, if they can’t even come back and say, I’m so sorry this happened, let’s make this better, they’re doing this to everybody. They’re doing it to all their customers.

Jesse Friedman: You know what’s funny is that I work in partnerships, and this might sound counterintuitive, but every once in a while I kind of hope there’s a little bit of friction, a little something, because it gives me the opportunity to prove how much I care. Being perfect actually kind of makes you invisible.

Stacy L. Osten: Going back to what I said about wanting people to forget who their hosting company is.

Jesse Friedman: Exactly. And what that means is that things aren’t going wrong. But the reality is, as much as you hope for that, it’s probably never going to be perfect. If there is that little bit of friction, you can jump in and make the situation ten times better than it was. Being vulnerable and transparent about your shortcomings gives you the opportunity to build trust and build a better relationship.

Stacy L. Osten: Absolutely. And we’re a business, yes, but we’re humans first. That’s how I personally lead my team and the affiliate and influencer program. We’re humans. Life happens. If an influencer comes to me and says, Stacy, I’m sorry, I missed the deadline, and here’s the reason why and here’s how I’m going to fix it, I’m not going to look at them and say, the contract’s over because you didn’t meet your deadline. Because again, life happens. When you lead with empathy and understanding, and you acknowledge that you are fallible, that goes a really long way with a customer. Because if you’re being honest and transparent versus gaslighting people, you just don’t do that.

Jesse Friedman: It’s interesting because a lot of people don’t know this about WP Cloud, but one of the things we do is it’s not just about offering a platform that our partners can sell and feel safe about. It’s not just about offering a hundred percent uptime where partners aren’t even having arguments about four nines or five nines. The other part is that myself and my team have been working on helping hosting companies be successful for over a decade. We’re able to help them go to market and do better and sell better. Part of the reason this podcast exists is to help inform hosting companies on ways they can protect the open web and do more and make more money doing it. So it’s a great opportunity to build those relationships and influence the way great managed hosting is being sold. And I think something else that’s really coming to light for me is that Automattic has this annual support rotation. Matt talks heavily about how we should be customer focused, talking to customers all the time. But an influencer is actually a little different. When you’re talking to a customer who’s trying to accomplish a goal and can’t get it done, they may just walk away and it’s hard to communicate with them. But when you’re asking an influencer to promote a product, they have to put their name, their brand, and their livelihood behind it. If people stop trusting them because the product broke that trust, that’s a big problem. I imagine you’re getting some pretty great product feedback from your influencers as well.

Stacy L. Osten: Absolutely. And if we’re thinking about how hosting companies can benefit from an influencer network, it’s not just that they’re going to help you sell. It can also be a channel to improve your product. This year we’re launching an influencer ambassador team and an affiliate ambassador team, made up of people specifically in our program who give us that feedback. And sometimes you have to be okay with getting really critical feedback. That’s important. I was talking to somebody earlier this morning about how to give feedback to an engineering team. I said, you start doing customer interviews. Then you look for trends and patterns and document them. Out of a hundred calls, 87 of them said this specific problem is their biggest issue. Then you go to engineering and show them the numbers. They can’t fight the numbers. You can’t get that data unless you’re talking to your customers. For me, that means the influencers. They’re hearing from their viewers on a regular basis. I want to know how often a concern comes up in conversation, because that’s a trend I can bring to engineering and say, this is a big problem, let’s solve it.

Jesse Friedman: And if you think about it, the way these influencers make money is by investing their time in writing, building, and designing content to promote your product. If your product doesn’t follow through on the promises they’re making, they lose trust with their audience. Their audience becomes less valuable, their network becomes less valuable, and they risk getting shadow banned or de-emphasized. So there’s a very tight alignment between their success and the quality of your product. That’s a really interesting way to connect the user experience with the influencer network.

Stacy L. Osten: There are influencers we’ve reached out to who have said, I’m not going to work with you until X, Y, and Z. And I think that’s awesome. Some people might find that discouraging, but now you know exactly what to fix. When X, Y, and Z is fixed, they’re the first person I go back to and say, hey, this is fixed, and it was based on the feedback you gave me. Nine times out of ten, it’s like, yeah, let’s work together.

Jesse Friedman: It’s interesting because I was thinking about this the other day. One of the things encroaching on the open web, beyond social media and closed platforms, is that there are services now providing solutions for customers where otherwise they would have built a website. A great example is link-in-bio. Link Tree came out of nowhere and solved a very real problem. It’s not just them either. There are six versions of this now. It’s essentially a web form. You pump in all your social media links, click a few buttons, make it pretty, and you drop that in your social media. But a decade ago, those people who wanted a quick way to link out to those things would have built a website.

Stacy L. Osten: Absolutely. A one-page website.

Jesse Friedman: And what happens is that ends up being a gateway into learning how to build more on your platform, and then eventually maybe even sell things. My daughter lives on YouTube. She and I will sit down and watch videos together, and she brings up these awesome documentaries and video essays. One of them was about someone who does video essays on history, teaching it from a different angle using stick figures. It’s charming and fun. He did a video that touched on World War II and the algorithm deemed it as hate content, even though it was a factual, history-based piece. He ended up doing a follow-up video documenting the hundreds of hours that went into making the original video. It’s not a hobby for him. It’s his career. And when he gets de-emphasized and YouTube doesn’t give ad revenue to the video, it completely crushes his quarterly goals, which is money out of his pocket. If he has a team, he’s not paying their paychecks because of the algorithm. Which leads me to a question about AI. These people are making this content, and we can’t have a conversation without circling back to AI. I’ve noticed a pattern on this show where I try to put it off as long as possible, and it always ends up as the last question in the second part of the episode. You’re talking to influencers who are making content, and I’m curious what they’re thinking in terms of AI. Maybe they can use it to move faster, but maybe there are people coming out now and making content entirely with AI and moving even faster. Do influencers care about and put an emphasis on human-made content?

Stacy L. Osten: This actually came up at an influencer conference I attended. We talked about creating AI influencers. And as much as people want that to happen, there’s an ethical aspect to it. There is this inherent human need to actually see humans. There’s a deception that happens when you look at what you think is a human and it’s not. In the influencer world, the vast majority of influencer managers are very much against it, mainly because we do want the honest take of a real human. We want real expertise, not just what an AI has absorbed from the internet. There is the human aspect of it. As I told my son when he was in high school, AI is your first draft. It is never your last draft. Because if it’s your last draft, it is void of all of you. AI is part of our lives now and it’s moving at a speed I’ve never seen from any part of technology. I was around during the dot-com bubble burst, but this is moving at such a speed that it boggles my mind. You have to integrate AI into your life. I use it on a daily basis, simply so I can spend more time with humans.

Jesse Friedman: I took a three-month sabbatical last year, and when I came back it felt like five years had passed. So much had changed. AI is not really optional anymore. We see all these things about people losing their jobs, and I think there may be something to that. But I also believe that if you stop fighting it, if you’re not the person selling carriages when the automobile comes out, and you adapt, you can use it as an accelerant. Think about composers for a film, or the President of the United States with speech writers. These people are attributed to content creation, but in reality there’s a team behind them doing a lot of the work. Some of the most famous words ever said by a president may not have actually been written by the president himself. Their job is essentially to redline. This is the ethos, this is the philosophy, this is the narrative. Go figure it out. And then they come back and either got it right or they didn’t. We can’t all afford a speech-writing team. But we can leverage AI to do that for us. You can go to Claude and say, this is the article I want written, this is the image I want designed, and keep tweaking. If you’re putting real human effort into it and signing your name to it, that’s something very different from what I think people have in their mind, where there’s this imaginary world where you give AI one prompt and a three-minute commercial comes out perfect. There are people putting out junk like that, and I wouldn’t consider that creative work. That’s not human work. That’s pure AI. But you can use AI to empower you to get your voice out there and double, triple, quadruple the amount of content you’re producing. That’s really powerful if we can get comfortable with it.

There’s another aspect of AI when it comes to influencers that’s interesting. We talked about influencers writing content and generating articles, and the way they get paid is through a URL with a parameter that attributes them to a sale. So what happens with AI when it goes out and reads that article? I’m on Claude and I ask who I should use for hosting, and Claude reads the influencer’s blog, sees they recommend WordPress.com, and suggests WordPress.com to me. But if I decide to sign up at that moment, does the influencer get the attribution?

Stacy L. Osten: Nope. And this is where things get complicated. AI is phenomenal, I’m not going to pretend otherwise. But there is a day of reckoning coming. What we’re seeing is that the internet is being changed in a way that’s ending businesses. Companies that have built a business creating tutorials have seen a 98% decrease in organic traffic. And when you do this long enough and make enough people angry, there’s going to come a point where people say, we’re not putting up with this anymore. It kind of goes back to pivot or die. What do we do as website owners and businesses to make sure we’re protecting ourselves? Going back to the dot-com bubble, there’s so much AI out there inundating us, but there’s going to be a point where we say enough. Everybody’s predicting it. Everybody knows it’s coming. We’re super excited about AI right now, but there is going to come a point where it levels out. A lot of the things people have been okay with in AI are going to see pushback. The CEO of one of the biggest hospitals in New York just said they’re going to fire all their radiologists and have AI read all the scans. As a human, I’m not letting AI read my scan to tell me whether or not I have cancer. Been there, done that. We as humans want humans, and we are going to eventually move back to the human aspect of it.

Jesse Friedman: I think that’s interesting, because even when AI is able to use data to prove it can read x-rays better, it’s the responsibility of the people making decisions around that AI to prove it and to build the confidence that humans need to feel comfortable with it. And I think you’re right that it gets a little frightening when we start putting AI into robots and things like that. But if we think about it from the perspective of empowering a single person to do more, you look at every hospital in the United States, they’re overrun. Too much going on, too long to wait for appointments. AI can actually help support more customers. But the idea that we just set it up and let it run on its own is kind of ridiculous.

Stacy L. Osten: And this is where I see a lot of companies right now. There’s this expectation that AI is just going to replace everything. I’m not sure which one it was, but one of the big server companies let AI go through and overwrite some code, and it shut down websites for hundreds of other companies. Now they’re stepping back and saying, maybe this isn’t a good idea, because you still have to have a senior developer looking at the code. But there’s also the aspect of if you stop coding, you lose the muscle memory. Then you can’t maintain the code that AI created. Now you’re stuck in a situation of, well, now what? I think what eventually happens is we’re going to land in a space where we say, this is how AI helps me do more for humans. Instead of creating a report that takes two weeks to do, I have AI create it for me. I go through and make sure everything’s correct, which takes a day. Then I put it out. And now I have almost a full week that I can actually spend setting up appointments with affiliates and influencers and talking to people.

Jesse Friedman: We’re at time, but I’m going to tell my producer John that he has to deal with it because this is such a good conversation. I want to go a few more minutes. I have a couple of things in my head I want to explore. Real quick, we were talking about influencers and the fact that their content may be consumed by AI and shared without attribution. But to play devil’s advocate, isn’t that kind of like what happened with Google when they started showing answers directly in the search engine results pages without sending users to the actual pages? People were losing their minds over that. But influencers are still around, people are still making a lot of money. So are we inflating the problem? Or is it something we can solve for? And maybe because AI is moving so fast, it’s just highlighting the problem more acutely, whereas with search engines we would have seen it happen gradually over years?

Stacy L. Osten: My hope is that the people building AI understand that if they put all the businesses that are writing content and doing videos out of business, where are they going to get their AI content from? If they put all these people out of business and all they have is information created last year, it’s stale. We know it’s outdated. That can’t work on the internet. My hope is that the companies doing the AI, the Google AI suggestions and others, are thinking about the fact that they have to have content. Content is royalty, not just king. They cannot continue to exist without all of these content creators. Plain and simple. So where are they going to get their content if they put everybody out of business?

Jesse Friedman: Maybe the way they address it is that it reaches an inflection point and they become incentivized to solve it. That’s the hope. Anytime there’s a transition in these areas, people tend to panic and adjust. And in this case, there is a right to panic.

Stacy L. Osten: There is. When I look at some of my biggest affiliates, they were making six figures a month. Now it’s just gone. There is a right to panic. We have to keep figuring out how to help those people. It’s pivot or go out of business. How do you figure out how to become relevant again? A big part of my job is when I start seeing one of my affiliates’ numbers going down because Google did something or AI took something, it’s me trying to figure out how we get their numbers back up.

Jesse Friedman: That’s really interesting. And something I’m thinking about that kind of ties everything back full circle is this idea that AI is eventually going to be selling things. There’s the opportunity for WooCommerce products to be featured inside AI and things like that. But all of this comes from websites. How much of AI’s information, the things they’re promoting, comes from closed platforms that may be less accessible? Is that another reason to own a domain and have a website on the open web?

Stacy L. Osten: Absolutely. The word of the day is diversify. You cannot depend on any other business to keep you in business. And that’s the thing about WordPress. If your hosting company for some reason goes out of business, they’ll most likely tell you ahead of time and you can move to a different hosting company. What happens if Wix goes out of business tomorrow? You’re going to go hire a developer to move your website to WordPress. That’s what you’re going to do. And it’s going to cost a lot of money, because there isn’t a clean way to just export everything. Going back to the open source aspect, you’re not stuck in one place. You can move from one WordPress host to another and your visitors will never even know you moved. With social media, it’s like, we’re no longer on TikTok, go follow me on Instagram. You have to make a big production about it because there’s no way to just reach out. And if you are platform dependent, if your audience is on Instagram and not TikTok, or vice versa, you’re probably losing a lot of those visitors. But with a website, you can switch hosting and your customer will never know. It’s all done in the background.

Jesse Friedman: The last thing I want to talk about with AI is that we talked about link-in-bio, about how people would have built websites, and then maybe they could grow and eventually sell products. It’s really interesting when you think about it from the influencer perspective. It’s so common for creators to build an audience and then have demand for a mascot, a t-shirt, a book, something. So they need to create merch. That might be solvable with a social media platform, but then you’re just increasing your risk. Now you’re not only building your creator platform on that, but you’re also putting your merchant work and your direct revenue from sales on top of a platform that can de-emphasize you instantaneously. I’m curious, have your influencers been using AI site builders, and are they having much success? Because I’m thinking they could continue to focus on the content they do really well and leverage AI to help them expand into selling, print on demand, all these things that may not be their core strength.

Stacy L. Osten: We have some who do and some who don’t. But when you’re always talking about designing a website for yourself, that is one core demographic. When they start talking about a web builder, they’re bringing in an entirely new audience. They got really good at talking to the developer, and now they have to get really good at talking to the person who just wants to make a two-page website. That is so important, because you have to continue to build your audience. Eventually you’re going to run out of experts. How do you bring in new customers if you’re only ever talking to experts?

Jesse Friedman: Talking to the hosting companies listening at home, and I think this can help us wrap things up. If you’re a hosting company talking to influencers and taking that feedback we talked about, which is incredibly valuable, one of the things you could actually do to improve the opportunity for them to sell and be successful is to curate and build something that the influencer can sell directed at their target market. The influencer isn’t necessarily going to be the one to say, I’m going to configure WordPress this way and add these plugins. But if the hosting company says, we’re going after makeup artist influencers, and what they need is these three plugins and the ability to sell a few products, you can go build that as a marketable product and give it to the influencers to distribute. I circle back to WP Cloud a lot, because one of the things we have is golden images. This idea that you can craft the perfect pre-configured, curated website, include the plugins you want, configure them the way you want, set up WooCommerce with Woo Payments as the default. Do all these things to benefit yourself as a hosting company, put it in a nice little package, and let your influencers distribute it for you.

Stacy L. Osten: Absolutely. And we’re finding this right now, even just with the algorithms. When you focus on a niche, it’s actually more beneficial. If you’re focused so broadly, you miss opportunities. But talking to people who create recipe websites, for example, they have their own specific needs. They need the plugin that has a jump-to-recipe button because nobody wants to read through all that SEO content. They need ads on the site, social sharing. They have a specific set of needs. Let’s just give it to them. Here you go.

Jesse Friedman: These are templatable patterns you can replicate over and over again. And I think you’re absolutely right that a hosting company should be looking at solving for these niche solutions. We talked about link-in-bio, and WordPress.com has a link-in-bio solution. Any hosting company can go out and build restaurant websites, recipe websites, and make these things and sell them. I think one of the things hosting companies need to get better at in general is recognizing that the other choices out there are not selling hosting. Shopify is not selling hosting. You don’t go to their website to compare CPUs and uptime. They’re selling a platform that provides a service that happens to have a website hosted somewhere. If hosting companies can get better at describing their products as end solutions rather than hosting, they can leverage influencers to sell into those areas. And the influencers will probably make even more money because the products are more likely to convert and more likely to see success. Everyone’s happy.

Stacy L. Osten: Yes. We get stuck on the hosting aspect, on the fact that we’re hosting. I never called it hosting. I just wanted to build a website. The vast majority of people who want a website have absolutely no idea what bandwidth is, what MySQL is, what a database is. Nor will they ever want to. When we start throwing big words and things they don’t care about at them, we’re losing them. But if we can go in and say, here is a recipe website, everything’s installed, you put in your name, we’ll create a logo for you, done. Then the only thing that person has to do is focus on making the recipes. Their website doesn’t matter. It just needs to do a job. So let’s help it do its job.

Jesse Friedman: I think that’s a great place to end it. Stacy, this was such a great conversation. Can I have you back on soon?

Stacy L. Osten: Of course. Always.

Jesse Friedman: Thanks.

Stacy L. Osten: Thanks.

Jesse Friedman: See you next time. Thanks for joining us on another episode of Impressive Hosting, where we uncover the core tenets of great WordPress hosting. Do you have a follow-up question for today’s guest, a thought or comment on anything we talked about, a future guest suggestion, a hosting horror story, or thoughts on what makes great WordPress hosting? All your comments shape the show. Drop them at impressive.host. We also appreciate you following us on social media and subscribing to the podcast on your favorite platform. Check out our list of open source projects that need support at impressive.host. Whether it’s code, community, or cash, you can make a difference. See you next time.